Shinbougatari Interview with Akiyuki Shinbou x Hekiru Hikawa x Kazuhiro Ohta

Ohta

"I felt like I needed to create something that had never been done before"

Hikawa

"For 'Pani Poni Dash!', it was important to have mechanisms that function as a medium for play"

Shinbou

"Because the characters are already established, we can play with them"

Meeting Director Shinbou Was Like Something Out of a Manga

Shinbou

I first met Hikawa-san during Pani Poni Dash! (◆1) at Square Enix, right? With Ohta-san, it was during an episode of Magical Girl Lyrical Nanoha (◆2) that was outsourced to another studio. He was the animation director for that episode. Usually, outsourced episodes (◆3) drop in quality, but when his work came in, it was the best we'd seen. So I had someone check who was responsible, and it turned out to be Ohta-san. Though we hadn't met at that point. Later, when I came to Shaft and was working on Tsukuyomi -MOON PHASE- (◆4), production came to me saying, "There's a new key animator who wants to work with us." I said, "That's fine, but I don't want them if they're not good," and it turned out to be Ohta-san. I was like, "What? He shouldn't be a key animator but an animation director!" I was really surprised.

Ohta

It was like a meeting straight out of manga (laughs). You never know how connections between people will form. I had received all the materials for Nanoha from the production team. When I looked at them, I thought they seemed familiar. When I asked who the director was, they told me it was Shinbou-san. I thought, "What? That's going to make me super nervous!" I was a fan of the legendary anime Tenamonya Voyagers (◆5) that Shinbou-san had directed. I thought it was amazing that someone was making something like that in the 90s. After that, I watched Soreyuke! Space Battleship Yamamoto Yohko and The Soul Taker ~Tamashii Gari~ and thought, "Wow, this person is on another level," and "He's someone who works with people I'll never meet in my life." Then suddenly I got the opportunity, and I was like, "What should I do?" (laughs). I just did the best I could with what I had. After I finished the work, I asked the production staff, "How was it?" and they said, "The director was really surprised."

Shinbou

It was incredible. I thought, "This is amazing, it might even threaten our in-house episodes."

Ohta

I never dreamed of that. At that time, I heard that Shinbou-san was directing both Nanoha and Tsukuyomi simultaneously, so I watched the first episode of Tsukuyomi. The moment I saw it, I thought, "I want to work on this!" (laughs). Tsukuyomi had a stronger Shinbou style to it. I knew someone who was working at Shaft, so I told him, "I'll give you my cell phone number, and I'd be happy if you could tell them to send work my way." That's how I got to work on Tsukuyomi.

Shinbou

The DVD corrections for Tsukuyomi owe a lot to Ohta-san's skills. He was heavily involved as one of the main staff, so for the next project, I naturally thought of Ohta-san and asked him to work on Pani Poni Dash! You were working on Tsukuyomi DVD revisions while also joining the Pani Poni Dash! production, right?

Ohta

That's the situation I was in when I met Hikawa-san. I had been awake for 30 hours doing retakes, and I was completely worn out. I was seeing hallucinations. So I don't remember much (laughs).

Hikawa

You were absolutely exhausted (laughs). You came in with a mountain of character designs, saying, "I was told to make characters identifiable just by their socks" (◆6). In the original manga, there weren't any specific settings for socks, but Ohta-san came with detailed specifications like "honor students wear knee-high socks" and "energetic girls wear loose socks."

Ohta

Once I said "I'll do it," I thought, "Whether my body breaks down or I'm thrown impossible work, I have to do it" (laughs). At that point, I was just resigned to it.

It Was a Series Where You Never Knew What Anyone Would Do Next

—Including details like the socks, Pani Poni Dash! became a work packed with an enormous amount of information.

Shinbou

When I saw the first episode, I thought, "This will work." After the first episode aired (◆7), viewers criticized it, but that didn't matter to me. I had absolute confidence that "this is right."

Ohta

When you have that confidence, things surprisingly work out. That's something only people who've experienced it would understand.

Hikawa

I felt the same way. By the time the first episode aired, several episodes were already completed, and the second episode would have the opening sequence and I knew things would change with every episode, so I was really looking forward to each broadcast. This sense of confidence stayed with us until the end. Even though we never knew what would happen next, I somehow felt strangely reassured.

Shinbou

We were betraying the audience's expectations, and we didn't know what was happening either, so there was this sense of shared experience.

Ohta

It was really interesting. Normally, a director would correct storyboards, create visual examples, and do various other things, but with Pani Poni Dash!, Director Shinbou was in a position more like overall supervision—providing initial ideas, final checks, and approving concepts. The production team was left to run wild with the middle process (laughs). It was a completely different way of making anime.

Hikawa

That's why you never knew what was going to happen. Up until around episodes 4 and 5, nobody knew anything. Despite not knowing, everyone was doing their own strange things.

Ohta

In the initial meeting with the director, there was this sense that "we need to create something that's never been done before." The common belief was that "anime should express interesting stories through careful animation and pleasing movement," but I was also thinking, "there must be something else, I want to create something different."

Shinbou

Everyone had that kind of mindset, didn't they?

Hikawa

Well, there wasn't even an opening in the first episode, after all (laughs).

Ohta

It started with a Planet of the Apes parody (laughs). That's when it was decided—Pani Poni Dash! would go in that direction.

Shinbou

That was King Records' Otsuki (Toshimichi)-san's (◆8) idea. Also, the idea of putting Behoimi in various places. That came from the business-minded suggestion of "can we market her as a magical girl?" (◆9). That's what led to the eyecatches.

Hikawa

Those also varied from episode to episode.

Shinbou

We put eyecatches not just at the end of part A or in the usual places, but in various spots throughout. Like how in foreign animation, "a logo spins and the scene changes" (◆10)—that rule came to me from that single comment.

Ohta

It was because of that one comment that we could freely run wild with it. Hikawa-san also loves that kind of thing.

When I read the original work, I had already grasped something of its essence in my own way. After meeting with you several times and talking, I felt that my initial impression wasn't off the mark. In the manga, besides the panel layout, you meticulously draw Maho-goods in the margins, create the Momozuki Newspaper, and are incredibly particular about details in parts separate from the main story. I've always loved that approach of recreating fantasies with extensive detail.

Hikawa

For the anime version of Paniponi Dash!, we didn't just use the original material as is, but expanded on elements like "Becky's birthday" or "school trip" and had them create content around those.

Ohta

We're basically doing official doujinshi. It's that fan psychology of "I want to see more episodes that aren't in the original work."

Paniponi Dash! is a true "character-based work" in the real sense

Hikawa

I once had a discussion with another manga artist. There are works like Lupin III: The Castle of Cagliostro or Patlabor 2 that don't exist in the original material. Some creators have a negative reaction to such works, while others actually want to see them made. I'm on the "please make them" side. Even if elements have no relation to the original work, the story expands when others create with it. Rather, if there's a chance, I think it would be fine to have original characters doing something in the Paniponi Dash! world. I believe Paniponi Dash! should have mechanisms that allow for that kind of creative play.

Ohta

When I first received that kind of message from Hikawa-sensei, the moment I read it, I thought, "This will be easy to work with."

Shinbou

But that's only possible because the characters are well-established. That's what playing with a "character-based work" means.

Ohta

Paniponi Dash! is truly a "character-based work" in the real sense.

Shinbou

That's the correct way to create character-based works. It's about how characters react when given new situations.

Ohta

We enjoy seeing the different reactions of each character when we introduce a situation.

Shinbou

That's what makes it interesting.

Hikawa

When characters are alive, you feel like there could be something more next time.

Ohta

Yes, you yourself as the original creator embody that. There's Maromayu, there's Behoimi-chan (◆11). You can develop in multiple directions.

Hikawa

I really want to share. Even if Shaft uses Paniponi Dash! characters in their original anime, it would still be interesting—actually, even more interesting.

Shinbou

Once characters are established, that's totally valid.

Hikawa

In romance manga with moe elements, as relationships between characters become closer, there's often a development where "it's nice to see sides of the girls they don't usually show." But in gag manga like Paniponi, there aren't many opportunities to show different sides of characters. So I thought, for gag manga, it might be better if characters gradually relax and show their true selves. Breaking down their formal sides might be a good approach.

Ohta

That's a really fresh perspective. It's like the feeling of secretly filming girls. In typical moe anime, there's inevitably the creator's bias of "this is how girls should be"...

Hikawa

I think people eventually get tired of "girlfriends" or "my waifu." But "classmates" are relationships you can maintain for life. I think that "classmate" feeling is the best aspect of variety shows. That's why I like the style of Paniponi Dash! Ichijou-san (◆12) also made it into the best form.

Shinbou

What's interesting about Ichijou-san is that with each DVD retouch, normal faces disappear more and more (laughs).

Ohta

It gradually becomes all half-lidded eyes. Actually, the director started requesting everything with half-lidded eyes (laughs).

Shinbou

But that's cuter, you know.

Ohta

Even though mouths aren't drawn, that's what makes it distinctly Ichijou-san's style. Her presence is really strong.

Hikawa

Ichijou-san was doing the same movements as Lupin (◆13), it was really anything goes.

"The way we made Pani Poni Dash! might be our true essence"

—After the TV broadcast ended in 2006, you created new episodes for the first time in 3 years for the DVD-BOX release. How was it working on new material after such a long time?

Ohta

For the new work after 3 years (◆14), we created it while recalling our mindset from that time. Back then we still had some immature aspects, but surprisingly I was able to return to that same feeling, which was quite surprising.

Shinbou

What we were doing with Pani Poni Dash! might actually be our true essence.

Ohta

I think so too. Regardless of growth or technical skill, "Pani Poni Dash!" was created with the raw essence of Kazuhiro Ohta and Akiyuki Shinbou-san.

Shinbou

So I think this is my representative work.

Ohta

I never dreamed I'd serve as character designer for Shinbou-kantoku's representative work (laughs).

Hikawa

And the fact that I'm the original creator is something I'm grateful for.

Shinbou

For the new episode, I wanted to make it as if we were creating the next episode right after the original series. I was worried whether we could pull it off, but when I saw Ohta-san's storyboards, I thought "Ah, this is how it was."

Ohta

As soon as I read the script, the images just came to me. That kind of raw style isn't something that easily comes back even if the same person tries to recreate it, but when I tried, I thought "Huh? It's back!" (laughs).

Shinbou

This time too, that same feeling came through.

Ohta

Thank you. When I read the script, I thought "This is it." The script already had that Pani Poni Dash! essence.

Shinbou

The scriptwriter Katsuhiko Takayama-san (◆15) really put in the effort. He was struggling at first, but after writing it he thought "Ah, this is definitely how it was."

Ohta

As staff members get older, we want to make sure our works don't age with us.

Shinbou

That's why I'm afraid of viewers watching the new episode and saying, "It doesn't have the same vibe as before, so we don't need a second season."

Ohta

Actually, when I heard we were making a special episode of "Pani Poni Dash!" after three years, I personally thought of it as a "flag" for a second season. Like, "Let's make this successful and then do a second season!" I think "Pani Poni Dash!" still has fans simmering with interest (laughs). That makes me really happy.

Hikawa

Even though it's been 3-4 years since it aired, there are still fans supporting it. We hear voices saying, "We want a second season."

Ohta

But we need to finish this and have fans watch it before we can say anything definitive. At the very least, I'm having fun working on "Pani Poni Dash!" Hikawa-sensei, you've already read the script, right?

Shinbou

You came to all the scenario meetings. How many drafts did we go through for that special episode? Seven?

Hikawa

We included jokes down to the finest details.

Ohta

We've also included popular gags from the original TV series as a sort of compilation. Like "Udon churuchuru Becky" and such (laughs) (◆16). We're thoroughly providing fan service.

Shinbou

That's definitely what people want.

Hikawa

The world these days has such a rapid consumption rate, and there are so many anime series. I hope we can create something that people will cherish for a long time.

Shinbou

Even within the anime industry, many people watched Pani Poni Dash! For example, when working on a new project and meeting a new original creator, they often tell me, "I watched Pani Poni Dash!" Basically, many people judge that "Shaft is OK because they made Pani Poni Dash!

Ohta

It seems Pani Poni Dash! has become an asset not just for us as individual creators, but for the company as well.

Hikawa

But Pani Poni Dash! has dedicated fans, or rather, it attracted really good fans.

Ohta

When you create something dense, you get dedicated fans too, right?

Hikawa

The anime is filled with the anime staff's taste. Like that episode where Media and Behoimi disarm bombs (◆17), which seems like a pointless story at first glance (laughs), but ends up feeling somewhat meaningful by the end.

Ohta

The "Hekiru Theater" in the previews (◆18) doesn't even function as a preview for the next episode. It shows the title of the next episode in text, but doesn't explain anything about the content (laughs).

Shinbou

We deliberately didn't add furigana to the kanji either.

Ohta

In episode 8, when we decided on the idea of making Behoimi grow gigantic with mushrooms, Hikawa-sensei had already shown a character suddenly growing gigantic after eating mushrooms in the "Hikawa Hekiru Theater" for episode 6 or 7 (◆19). The moment I saw that, I thought, "Damn, he got us!" (laughs). I was like, "What's with this anime, give us proper previews! What's the original creator doing going wild like this?" (laughs).

Hikawa

But Shaft doesn't go overboard with just any work. For example, with Hidamari Sketch, they respect the original work and create a high-quality product that's supported by fans. This sense of balance is mysterious. They're versatile, or rather, amazing. Someday I'd like to see something like Mazinger Z vs. Devilman from the Toei Manga Festival, but with "Pani Poni vs. Hidamari vs. Sayonara Zetsubou Sensei" all combined.

Ohta

That's what fans want too, right?

Shinbou

If Sayonara Zetsubou Sensei and Pani Poni could face off, I'd like to see that.

Ohta

It would be fun to make a fighting arena with Shaft works, wouldn't it? (laughs) But honestly, I don't think we'd lose to other works. After all, Pani Poni Dash! has me... just kidding (laughs).

We could talk endlessly, couldn't we? (laughs)

Hikawa

Since we don't have enough time, let's continue next week.

Shinbou

Should we change venues and restart the interview? (laughs)

Ohta

We'll keep meeting in the future anyway, so this isn't really the end.

Hikawa

Our battle has only just begun!